TIVO vs E*

[TheKrell]

If you are ever voir dired for a jury in a patent case I hope you make your prejudices known.

I don't even have to make any prejudices known; all I do is inform the court that I'm a scientist, and I'm immediately sent home. It is apparent that lawyers only want ignorant savages on the jury.

 

[Thomas22]

I don't even have to make any prejudices known; all I do is inform the court that I'm a scientist, and I'm immediately sent home. It is apparent that lawyers only want ignorant savages on the jury.

True that. It's the same with engineers.

 

[jacmyoung]

It's a problem that you think I'm not a poker player? How do you know what I am or what I am not? I thought this was a discussion board about E* and Tivo. I didn't realize I stumbled upon a poker game.



I don't see how it's any of your business what I am. Stick to the subject, not the people. If you can't do that I suggest you put me on ignore.



Game? You're playing a game? I'm not in the mood to play games. Once again, stick to the subject or be gone.

You simply have no ability to read yourself. You said yourself you were betting against E* because E* lost the reexamination once before, so supposedly taking your view, because they lost that one, the odds are now lower. You made the bet, and I called you on it, that it was not a bet made by a poker player, because the odds do not change, you do not bet on the last game, rather the next one!

Charlie is a poker player, we all know that, the question is if Rogers is also a poker player.

Now if you can't see the metaphor, I will not use it on you anymore, so let's be blunt instead:

And the best part is Charlie can't appeal contempt. He was told by a court of law to do something and didn't. You can't appeal the punishment for not listening to what a judge told you to do.

You simply have no idea at all about the basics, let me just say that without wasting more time on you, period!

 

[jacmyoung]

I don't even have to make any prejudices known; all I do is inform the court that I'm a scientist, and I'm immediately sent home. It is apparent that lawyers only want ignorant savages on the jury.

For a good reason

Because we are more analytical, and at least think we know more. But a jury's job is not to know the subject, rather how to plainly look at the facts, and apply the facts to the law.

The more you know the subject, the more biased you will be. We should all be glad this is how the system works.

Can you imagine letting the smart engineers and scientists to decide? They will never be able to agree on anything

 

[Richard Cranium]

You simply have no ability to read yourself.

Sigh.... I even asked you nice. Since you can't leave personal attacks out of this you leave me no choice.

Time to take the trash to the curb.

Can someone tell me where the "ignore" function is? Is there one? I can't seem to find it.

 

[TheKrell]

Can someone tell me where the "ignore" function is? Is there one? I can't seem to find it.

Just left-click on the name, and it's at the bottom of the pop up menu. I guess that was not obvious, so probably somebody patented it and you'll have to pay them to use it.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Since the patent reexamination is a non issue and the Judge in DE is refusing to hear this case, does anyone have any idea when the Judge in TX rules contempt?

I'm thinking early next week.

What do you guys think?

 

[Richard Cranium]

Just left-click on the name, and it's at the bottom of the pop up menu. I guess that was not obvious, so probably somebody patented it and you'll have to pay them to use it.

Everybody likes a little ass but nobody likes a smart ass....

Thanks.

 

[jacmyoung]

Just left-click on the name, and it's at the bottom of the pop up menu. I guess that was not obvious, so probably somebody patented it and you'll have to pay them to use it.

The guy just came on board today, before finding where the ignore button was, started to lecture everyone that the patent claim validation is irrelevant to this whole litigation, and a contempt ruling could not be appealed, and his bet was the claims will be validated because it was validated last time, and the longer the wait, the more severe the damage.

On the last one we had heard it before, but notice no TiVo folks are saying it anymore. Needed to read up more before offering so many opinions on the first day

The worst part is, he will never know what kind of a$% he made of himself.

 

[CuriousMark]

The guy just came on board today, before finding where the ignore button was, started to lecture everyone that the patent claim validation is irrelevant to this whole litigation,

I believe he is quite correct about that. this litigation will probably be over long before that will. Frankly it looks to me like the patent re-examination is just sour grapes on the part of Dish in case they lose. If they can't win, they want to make sure no one does. If anything I take it as an indication that they don't believe they will win in court.

and a contempt ruling could not be appealed,

Not true, you are correct there, but a preliminary injunction or new or updated final injunction, even if appealed is much less likely to be stayed this time around. So an appeal may not be very helpful. We will just have to wait and see about that part.

and his bet was the claims will be validated because it was validated last time,

Back to the ex parte examination again? This has been well discussed. The new issues are simply a retry based on two patents that were presented, but not thoroughly evaluated at the last re-examination. The new twist is that both prior art patents have to be used in conjunction with each other to possibly invalidate the TiVo claims. The examiner will look at it. there may have been good reason why they were not thoroughly looked over the first time around.

and the longer the wait, {for the current litigation to end} the more severe the damage.

assuming TiVo wins. Dish knows this and still is stringing things out. They obviously believe the delays are worth any additional costs if they lose and know there is no downside at all if they win. Dish did the math, they know what they are doing here.

In as little as two weeks, My guess, we should hear from DE and TX and have real new information to discuss and can put some of this idle speculation to bed.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I believe he is quite correct about that. this litigation will probably be over long before that will. Frankly it looks to me like the patent re-examination is just sour grapes on the part of Dish in case they lose. If they can't win, they want to make sure no one does. If anything I take it as an indication that they don't believe they will win in court.

It's a scorched earth policy. Charlie knows he's toast and he's attempting to take his ball and go home.

Unfortunately for Charlie he already tried this once and failed miserably, just as he will fail miserably this time and the next time too.

He can keep spending money trying to have the patents invalidated but he's just wasting his shareholders money. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a class action suit against Charlie and E* the way things have been handled.

Anyway, this whole Hail Mary has no bearing on TX or DE. Especially since DE is already washing their hands of Charlie and sending him back to where he belongs. TX. I can't imagine that the Judge in TX is going to be happy to hear that Charlie has been sneaking around trying to go over his head.

If you ask me, Charlie is playing with fire. He's begging for treble damages.

 

[Kevinw]

Everyone was new here at one time and everyone is entitled to voice there thoughts. Let's not slag newcomers please.

 

[riffjim4069]

It's a scorched earth policy. Charlie knows he's toast and he's attempting to take his ball and go home.

Unfortunately for Charlie he already tried this once and failed miserably, just as he will fail miserably this time and the next time too.

He can keep spending money trying to have the patents invalidated but he's just wasting his shareholders money. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a class action suit against Charlie and E* the way things have been handled.

Anyway, this whole Hail Mary has no bearing on TX or DE. Especially since DE is already washing their hands of Charlie and sending him back to where he belongs. TX. I can't imagine that the Judge in TX is going to be happy to hear that Charlie has been sneaking around trying to go over his head.

If you ask me, Charlie is playing with fire. He's begging for treble damages.

Richard Cranium? Bahahahahaha! Too funny....

Anyway, I largely agree. As much as I dislike the bogus Tivo patents, Dish Network was found in violation of patent law and their courtroom tactics speak volumes about the organization - none of it good. Personally, I feel there is a good chance E* will be paying treble damages for the reasons posted. We shall see.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Folks lets not make it personal, just because you have a different opinion and see the facts differently is the reason why this case is before a judge.

Please continue to give your insight and feelings on the matters and facts in the case no matter whos side you are on, but please dont turn this into a user vs user battle.

We have some of the best minds that I have seen out of any forum discuss this matter intelligently without the name calling. Please keep it that way.

 

[TheKrell]

Scorched Earth?

It's a scorched earth policy. Charlie knows he's toast and he's attempting to take his ball and go home.

Oh fiddlesticks. A scorched earth policy would have Charlie buying out Tivo, canning everyone who was ever associated with the firm, and then turning around and suing everybody else for patent infringement.

 

[jacmyoung]

I believe he is quite correct about that. this litigation will probably be over long before that will.

Let's first clarify one thing, the reason we are even talking about this new lawsuit is an admission that TiVo might fail on the contempt issue, why? Because if E* is in contempt, this new suit will likely be moot. So let's put things in perspective. For a very long time, TiVo folks talked about why E* was in contempt on the face, new design or not, to today talking about the new case may be many years from now, that is a huge change of attitude already

Frankly it looks to me like the patent re-examination is just sour grapes on the part of Dish in case they lose. If they can't win, they want to make sure no one does. If anything I take it as an indication that they don't believe they will win in court.

Now you of course can have your opinion, the problem is TiVo folks cannot face facts. The fact is in any reexamination, once granted, the statistics do not lie. Among all such cases, 72% of the chance the patent claims are invalidated in whole or in part. This much is undisputed.

Why? For the USPTO to even grant a reexamination, there has to be very good justifications. The fact TiVo got its patent validated last time was against the odds, very good I must admit, but it does not change the fact the odds are against TiVo once a reexamination is granted.

"If they can't win" is a false premise. What we have been talking about since 5/30/08 is this contempt issue, TiVo simply cannot secure a ruling in its favor, so TiVo is losing, until such time Judge Folsom hands TiVo a contempt ruling, E* is not in contempt.

The only thing TiVo won was the original judgement and the injucntion, they have yet won a single new thing since 2006. Many TiVo folks like to brag about E* paying the $104M a few months ago, but they failed to realize that the only reason they can now brag about it is because the payment was delayed by over two years. In most cases the payments would have been paid a longe time ago, in fact for the majority of the cases, the defendants simply settled and paid even before the trial had started, just ask DirecTV and Time Warner

Not true, you are correct there,

The reason for the double talk is because I was right, a contempt ruling, once final, of course can be appealed, that was the only point.

but a preliminary injunction or new or updated final injunction, even if appealed is much less likely to be stayed this time around. So an appeal may not be very helpful. We will just have to wait and see about that part.

That is of course a different point. While it is possible the appeals court may not stay the order, most times the orders are stayed pending appeal. But like you said, we will have to wait and see. But let's not hold our breadth on this one, it may never come to that at all, if you know what I mean.

But let's not talk about some preliminary injunction, there is no such thing here. Now if you want to talk about some "updated final injunction" be my guest, there is hardly anything like such in the real world. Since this permanent injunction did not work in TiVo's favor, maybe the judge will issue a more powerful new injunction, it does not happen that way for the most part. But if the thought of that makes TiVo folks more hopeful, so be it.

Back to the ex parte examination again? This has been well discussed. The new issues are simply a retry based on two patents that were presented, but not thoroughly evaluated at the last re-examination. The new twist is that both prior art patents have to be used in conjunction with each other to possibly invalidate the TiVo claims. The examiner will look at it. there may have been good reason why they were not thoroughly looked over the first time around.

Not "good reason" but "substantial new question." Had the examiner looked over it the first time thoroughly, it is possible we would not be here talking at all.

assuming TiVo wins. Dish knows this and still is stringing things out. They obviously believe the delays are worth any additional costs if they lose and know there is no downside at all if they win. Dish did the math, they know what they are doing here.

Can't argue against you when you agree E* knows what they are doing

In as little as two weeks, My guess, we should hear from DE and TX and have real new information to discuss and can put some of this idle speculation to bed.

I will not bet on that, though it is possible a ruling or two can happen tomorrow, it is also possible we may not hear anything in two months. One thing though, real new info continues to trickle down from time to time despite of no final ruling.

 

[jacmyoung]

Oh fiddlesticks. A scorched earth policy would have Charlie buying out Tivo, canning everyone who was ever associated with the firm, and then turning around and suing everybody else for patent infringement.

It would be a big mistaketo buy TiVo now, once TiVo loses, it will be much cheaper to buy In fact if the software patent claims are invalidated in the future, there will be a much bigger discount.

 

[Thomas22]

72% of the chance the patent claims are invalidated in whole or in part. This much is undisputed.

Patents that have already been reexamined and emerged unscathed (as the TiVo patent did) are much more bulletproof than patents being reexamined for the first time. Every claim of TiVo's patent was reexamined. Each and every one.

The really hilarious thing is that Dish only asked for reexamination of a few claims back then. TiVo said screw that, reexamine all of the claims. Each and every claim was affirmed, all 61 of them. Not a single word was changed.

... and there is a dispute. Don't say it's undisputed. There are sometimes minor changes to claims to clarify based on examiner's suggestions. That's the 59% of first time claim changes and again, this ain't the first time and no examiner ever suggested changes to TiVo's patents as result of the year long reexamination. Just the opposite.

 

[jacmyoung]

Patents that have already been reexamined and emerged unscathed are much more bulletproof than patents being reexamined for the first time.

Please provide statistics for your claim. What are the odds for a certain outcome from a second reexamination on the same claims?

 

[jacmyoung]

Here is a very good read on the most recent development of the reexamination process:

http://64.237.99.107/media/pnc/4/media.864.pdf

Basically on 9/4/08 (a very recent event I must add), the appeals court made a very important ruling that will make the reexamination process a more potent weapon for the accused infringers to fight back.

As I said before the general trend in the recent years is to limit the "patent trolls" ability to intimidate businesses into licensing.

And believe it or not, E* is at the frontline again. Remember in that Forgent case story, E* was one of the few players in that TX court to turn the tide of the "patent trolls" straight winning record, by defeating Forgent in 2006, after losing to TiVo just the same year.

This most recent appeals court ruling was made on 9/4/08, once again, E* is probably one of the first to answer to such call, by getting the USPTO to grant a second reexamination on 11/10/08.