Do you have microstutters?

[vurbano]

How many suffer from this problem? Please vote

 

[Sean Mota]

Can you describe them? I think there are people who do not know what they are.

 

[vurbano]

no I dont have them but ive heard some do.

 

[Scubasoul]

It basically looks like a "frame is dropped" in the video. This is very subtle and one has to look closely. Infact. it is so short that if you blink your eyes you might miss it.

I find it particularly easy to see if you look at the ticker of e.g. CNN. Just watch it closely.

 

[eschu97611]

no I dont have them but ive heard some do.

You started a poll about something you can't see and don't know how to define??????

Uh, O.K.-I'll play, I guess-lol

 

[Ken F]

It's also more noticeable on some types of programming than others. On the NBA and NHL coverage, the dropped frames are fairly obvious when they are running down the court or skating down the ice. On scenes where there isn't much going on (ex: little or no movement), it's not very obvious at all. On transition scenes, it can be near impossible to see.

As for what it looks like...I would equate it to a very fast layer change on a DVD.

 

[eschu97611]

It's also more noticeable on some types of programming than others. On the NBA and NHL coverage, the dropped frames are fairly obvious when they are running down the court or skating down the ice. On scenes where there isn't much going on (ex: little or no movement), it's not very obvious at all. On transition scenes, it can be near impossible to see.

Very prevelant on the TNT HD broadcast of the Western Conf. Finals tonight

 

[ZeitGeist]

I don't think there is any such thing. I've seen a channel that dropped frames and it's not something that's so subtle that you have to watch for it. (For those that want to know, the digital channel was the ABC affiliate in Houston, channel 13. There was nothing micro or subtle about it and it happened every 10 to 15 seconds.) I think the Voom set top box is flaky and in terrible need of some better firmware but I've run side-by-side tests with my DirectTV tuner (Zenith DTV1080) and aside from the fact that DirectTV looks a little better on SD I can not see a stutter on either service. If the stutter exists on Voom then it must exist on Direct too and I don't know what I'm looking at or some people are seeing things.

david

 

[ChetK]

YES!!! I see it.

Here's what I think it is:

Actual video is 29.97 frames per second (It's actually called "drop-frame"). However, somewhere in the pipeline, some piece of "upconvert" or "downconvert" or "transmission" equipment is changing it to 30fps. Thus, this dropped frame is visible. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems could be the problem.

 

[eschu97611]

I don't think there is any such thing. I've seen a channel that dropped frames and it's not something that's so subtle that you have to watch for it. (For those that want to know, the digital channel was the ABC affiliate in Houston, channel 13. There was nothing micro or subtle about it and it happened every 10 to 15 seconds.) I think the Voom set top box is flaky and in terrible need of some better firmware but I've run side-by-side tests with my DirectTV tuner (Zenith DTV1080) and aside from the fact that DirectTV looks a little better on SD I can not see a stutter on either service. If the stutter exists on Voom then it must exist on Direct too and I don't know what I'm looking at or some people are seeing things.

david

I guess the 14 people so far that have voted "yes" are just f***ed in the head, huh-my bad they don't exist people-can we change our votes-too late-ah shucks-LMAO

 

[eschu97611]

15 and counting.......what's wrong with you people-they don't exist, have not you heard?-lol

 

[Seawaves]

I think they are great!

 

[ZeitGeist]

There are thousands and thousands of people flocking to driveways, walls, hedges, glass bottles, water stains, and potato farms all the time where they think they "see" the Virgin Mary. There are hundreds of people every year who report UFO sightings - some even claiming to have been abducted by these UFOs. Millions of people have watched the Zapruder film and think that proves that President Kennedy got shot from front. People can delude themselves to believe whatever they want to believe. People misinterpret sensory data all the time. One of the reasons is that humans tend to be highly suggestible - hence the placebo effect. In the case of this "microstutter" I've seen descriptions that range all over the board. A couple of people seem to think that every channel on Voom has the problem. Some people say that it is almost imperceptible unless you know what it looks like. Others that it's hard to see except with content that involves fast moving action like sports. When I looked back through the messages one thing did catch my attention very strongly - no one was talking about a problem until genewildershair talked about it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some sort of "microstutter". I'm highly skeptical that there is but I've been wrong plenty of times. But, in a world were some people used to think that marking the edge of a cd with a green felt tip pen made it sound better, I have no doubt you can find a lot of people that think they see something that doesn't exist.

dave

 

[The Stone Man]

Im convinced that the problem exists, but I don't really notice it, and I don't want to notice it. Maybe I'm sticking my head in the sand on this, but so far it isn't a problem, and I don't need to add any on top of what I already have. I'm nowhere near 'videophile' status like some people, so ignorance is bliss.

 

[oddwunn]

The stutters ARE there, no doubt about it, or at least on my two boxes!

I've seen a channel that dropped frames and it's not something that's so subtle that you have to watch for it.

It depends on how many frames are dropped. Even a very experienced person would have a difficult time spotting a single dropped frame, and a novice might not notice anything less than 15 or 20. Even after several years of video encoding, I have a problem spotting anything less than about 3 or 4 dropped frames in a row.

That being said, I estimate that every so often (I never measured the time interval) Voom is dropping about 7 or 8 frames consecutively, and may be dropping frames between, but since they are single frames, nobody notices.

I think the Voom set top box is flaky and in terrible need of some better firmware but I've run side-by-side tests with my DirectTV tuner (Zenith DTV1080) and aside from the fact that DirectTV looks a little better on SD I can not see a stutter on either service. If the stutter exists on Voom then it must exist on Direct too and I don't know what I'm looking at or some people are seeing things.

Yes and no.

Yes, I also think that the problem resides in inefficient decoding algorithms, not enough horsepower in the decoding chip and circuitry, or a combination of both. I don't think the problem resides in the transmission, as the OTA locals suffer from the same problem, and my locals are already known to be just fine.

No, the problem does not exist on my two DTC 100s, as I have compared them side by side on the same channels, mostly using the OTA tuner.

My hope is that the problem resides in the Voom box firmware, as that can be corrected, and hopefully easily. If the box doesn't have enough horsepower, then there will be no solution in sight other than changing or augmenting the physical hardware.

For those of you who are not seeing stutters, there are two possibilities:

1. You eyes are not trained enough to notice these somewhat subtle artifacts.
2. You have a newer box than what the rest of us have and the problem could have been corrected in the newer hardware.

 

[oddwunn]

A couple of people seem to think that every channel on Voom has the problem. Some people say that it is almost imperceptible unless you know what it looks like. Others that it's hard to see except with content that involves fast moving action like sports.

Since a decoder has to "work harder" decoding some material than it does on others, all of the above statements could be true. If the decoder has to work very hard and isn't fast enough to perform in real time, the effect would be very obvious, but if the workload is less demanding and the decoder could keep up, then the effect would be much more subtle, and sometimes not exist at all. Any given channel could be afflicted all the time, seldom, or not at all depending on the type of material and amount of compression used.

People can delude themselves to believe whatever they want to believe. People misinterpret sensory data all the time.

That's very true. But in the examples you provided, people saw what they wanted to see, not what they didn't want to see. I would love nothing more than to NOT see these stutters...

 

[vurbano]

You started a poll about something you can't see and don't know how to define??????

Uh, O.K.-I'll play, I guess-lol

Whats it matter who starts the poll?

 

[subdude212]

When I looked back through the messages one thing did catch my attention very strongly - no one was talking about a problem until genewildershair talked about it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some sort of "microstutter". I'm highly skeptical that there is but I've been wrong plenty of times. But, in a world were some people used to think that marking the edge of a cd with a green felt tip pen made it sound better, I have no doubt you can find a lot of people that think they see something that doesn't exist.

dave

Dave:

I applaud your insights, observations and your skepticism. This "microstutter problem" hasn't been detectable on my equipment and I even tried to find it so that I could be objective. I hooked up my Tivo to record VOOM and then I played back the offending TNT-HD broadcast of a recent TWolves crushing victory over the hateful LA Lakers. No dropped frames when replayed in slow motion, no frozen pixels, nada, squat, bupkus, niente, nothing.

Therefore I believe that an equally plausible cause of these alleged "microstutters" is cerebral and/or vascular as a blood clot in the brain may cause someone to experience a "micro-blackout" or a "mini-psychosis" lasting a brief mili-second and thereby confusing the HD viewer into believing that the equipment malfunctioned.

 

[Scubasoul]

Dave:

I applaud your insights, observations and your skepticism. This "microstutter problem" hasn't been detectable on my equipment and I even tried to find it so that I could be objective. I hooked up my Tivo to record VOOM and then I played back the offending TNT-HD broadcast of a recent TWolves crushing victory over the hateful LA Lakers. No dropped frames when replayed in slow motion, no frozen pixels, nada, squat, bupkus, niente, nothing.

Therefore I believe that an equally plausible cause of these alleged "microstutters" is cerebral and/or vascular as a blood clot in the brain may cause someone to experience a "micro-blackout" or a "mini-psychosis" lasting a brief mili-second and thereby confusing the HD viewer into believing that the equipment malfunctioned.

LOL, that's a good one.

A lot a "blood clots" then here

 

[squicken]

There are thousands and thousands of people flocking to driveways, walls, hedges, glass bottles, water stains, and potato farms all the time where they think they "see" the Virgin Mary. There are hundreds of people every year who report UFO sightings - some even claiming to have been abducted by these UFOs. Millions of people have watched the Zapruder film and think that proves that President Kennedy got shot from front. People can delude themselves to believe whatever they want to believe. People misinterpret sensory data all the time. One of the reasons is that humans tend to be highly suggestible - hence the placebo effect. In the case of this "microstutter" I've seen descriptions that range all over the board. A couple of people seem to think that every channel on Voom has the problem. Some people say that it is almost imperceptible unless you know what it looks like. Others that it's hard to see except with content that involves fast moving action like sports. When I looked back through the messages one thing did catch my attention very strongly - no one was talking about a problem until genewildershair talked about it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some sort of "microstutter". I'm highly skeptical that there is but I've been wrong plenty of times. But, in a world were some people used to think that marking the edge of a cd with a green felt tip pen made it sound better, I have no doubt you can find a lot of people that think they see something that doesn't exist.

dave

Good post
I have only seen the microstutters once, and that was with someone beside me pointing out what to look for. Maybe I'm just highly-suggestable.