Titanium Satellite Titanium ASC1 Positioner Troubleshooting

[Titanium]

Thanks everyone for providing excellent troubleshooting suggestions! Had a great weekend with a ton of amateur radio contacts (including a SOTA - Summits On The Air).

Agree with KE4EST with the M1/M2 DC voltage test. Let us know the results.

Continue to provide service for the ASC1. If you wish to send it in for testing, please email or call.

 

[bill1]

Thanks everyone for providing excellent troubleshooting suggestions! Had a great weekend with a ton of amateur radio contacts (including a SOTA - Summits On The Air).

Agree with KE4EST with the M1/M2 DC voltage test. Let us know the results.

Continue to provide service for the ASC1. If you wish to send it in for testing, please email or call.

Thanks, Brian. I agree those were great troubleshooting suggestions. KE4EST is correct. My auto ranging multimeter is too slow to see the voltage. I have figured out what the problem is. Seems I have an intermittent short in one of the motor wires. Best I can figure is that it is occurring at the point where the cable flexes when the dish moves. I ran a temporary new motor wire to replace the shorted one and the ASC1 now is working fine.

Would it be possible to send my original unit or mainboard in for repair? It stopped powering up after a bad storm where I lost both LNB's, HDMI ports on the sat receiver as well as the TV. Must have came in thru the coax. First and only time in better than 25+ yrs that I've ever suffered any damage during a storm. The dish is bonded to house ground but mother nature won out. Curiously when powered up the display does not light up but it has 36V on M1 and M2 to ground so I assume the transformer, etc is fine. Just damaged the mainboard from what I can tell. It would be great to have a spare in case that ever happens again.

Thanks again everyone for the help!!

 

[Titanium]

If a lightning strike, best to send in the main PCB plus the faceplate and f-con PCB from rear panel. Basically, sent in all electronics minus the transformer.

I am hesitant to do single component replacements on lightning damaged electronics as other components may have been weakened by the event and prematurely fail when placed back into service.

 

[arlo]

If a lightning strike, best to send in the main PCB plus the faceplate and f-con PCB from rear panel. Basically, sent in all electronics minus the transformer.

I am hesitant to do single component replacements on lightning damaged electronics as other components may have been weakened by the event and prematurely fail when placed back into service.

Sounds like time to get the Arduino out and write up some burn in/exercise code! hah
And Someone suggested to bring the motor inside and run it to negate cabling issues. Hmmm.
Any schematics for this beast?

 

[bill1]

If a lightning strike, best to send in the main PCB plus the faceplate and f-con PCB from rear panel. Basically, sent in all electronics minus the transformer.

I am hesitant to do single component replacements on lightning damaged electronics as other components may have been weakened by the event and prematurely fail when placed back into service.

Thanks, Brian. I sent an email to your support address.

 

[Titanium]

Understand from the op's email that the distribution wiring was found to be intermittent and the ASC1 now works fine with the temporary run. The op will be working with us to repair the original unit that was damaged by lightning.

 

[lme]

Yes.

Also yes.

Do you have any sort of momentary push button switch and some spare wire?
Disconnect the unit from the dish completely( not wiring to dish motor or sensor).
Put the switch across the sensor terminals. This takes a little coordination, but start with one hand(finger) tapping the switch. Then with other had try to move East or West? Does it error out? or think it is moving? Better yet clip your meter across the M1 and M2 terminal. One direction should show approx. +36 Volts and the other direction should show -36V. You got to keep a steady tapping rhythm or it will error out on a good unit. But it don't have to be perfect, as long as you are relatively fast. If the unit does not error out that will rule out the ASC1.

Are you using sheilded cable going out to your dish? If not try putting oh maybe a 250-500pF capacitor across S1 and S2 and put a 0.1µF cap across the motor leads and maybe one of each to ground from the motor terminals. This will cut down on motor noise that may be getting induced onto your sensor wire.

I know it's an old post, but I just noticed that the user manual says 0.01mF !!! not 0.1mF !
"If you are experiencing counting errors, these often are caused by the type of wiring,grounding / shielding and excessive motor noise. If when moving from point A to pointB, the motor stops short of the programmed position, the sensor circuit is receiving toomany counts. This indicates that noise is entering the sensor circuit. Here are a fewsuggestions to correct common noise issues.• Connect a .01 µF, 50 volt (minimum rated / approximate value) capacitorbetween the M1 and M2 wires at the actuator motor. The capacitor minimizesthe motor RF noise from interfering with the sensor and servo control circuits."
So what is the real value of the capacitor ?
Thx.

 

[Titanium]

Good catch! The manual was last updated over 10 years ago and no one noted this typo.
0.1 µF, 50 volt would be a good starting value.

 

[jdavid22]

Good catch! The manual was last updated over 10 years ago and no one noted this typo.
0.1 µF, 50 volt would be a good starting value.

Hello, good day. I've also been experiencing counting errors, so I requested shielded cable. I hadn't read the manual, but in fact, I read about this arrangement. To correct these counting errors, I know almost nothing about electronics, so I ask... would there be two capacitors, one for each cable going to motors M1 and M2? Does it matter how I connect them? Does anyone have an image of what it looks like? Thanks for all the help.

 

[jdavid22]

Titanium
A new question: is one leg of the capacitor connected to each cable, M1 and M2?Are the capacitors of this type?

 

[Titanium]

Hello, good day. I've also been experiencing counting errors, so I requested shielded cable. I hadn't read the manual, but in fact, I read about this arrangement. To correct these counting errors, I know almost nothing about electronics, so I ask... would there be two capacitors, one for each cable going to motors M1 and M2? Does it matter how I connect them? Does anyone have an image of what it looks like? Thanks for all the help.

Typically, if needed, the capacitor is placed between the two motor wires in the actuator. I've seen it either soldered at the motor or connected between the screws on the actuator's terminal strip.

Have used a torroid 240, type 43 at the actuator and wrapped the control wire bundle around the donut 7 to 10 times. Clip-om ferrites can be used, but in my opinion, not as effective. Might install a 2nd torroid at the controller and wrap only the sensor wires around the torroid core.

Also, connect the sheild (around the S1/S2 sensor wires) only to the controller's ground and leave unconnected (open) at the actuator.

Miscounts may be caused by an aging reed switch, which can become magnitized and become unreliable over time.

Good luck!

 

[Titanium]

Titanium
A new question: is one leg of the capacitor connected to each cable, M1 and M2?Are the capacitors of this type?

View attachment 185559

Yes, but be sure they are rated at least 50v

 

[arlo]

Interesting. With no electronics experience (or very little). A few things.
A capacitor of the suggested value between the motor terminals helps in most cases.
Be sure when selecting one that it is a non-polarized disc. Not an electrolytic with +/- leads. Because motor direction changes by reversing the voltage polarity. An electrolytic cap getting reversed voltage can damage them or make them pop like a firecracker.

A mechanical check of the motor to tube coupling would be a good idea. I'm going to guess that you're always losing counts.
Gaining counts is highly improbable due to the way everything works. If you do gain counts. Like when you change to a satellite more East (if your actuator pushes the dish from West to East). It could in fact be motor noise or a worn out reed switch with bouncy, noisy contacts.

If I run my dish from satellite to satellite. Counts will usually track good for a long time. It's when I hunt for a new sat to add to my stored settings. Where you're jogging the dish East and West to peak signal before storing the position. That's where errors add up.
It gets worse if in fact the motor/gearbox coupling is worn and sloppy. The motor will turn on and start counting before the tube moves.
Worn out tube threads could probably add to it too. Do check if the motor to tube coupling is still in good shape.

Keep a satellite as your "home" position at 0000. For me 127W. Brian helped to understand why.
As you add sats to your stored positions. Where you get to the point you can move to one and another with no E/W adjustments to peak the signal consistently. And hunt for a new one, looking for and peaking your signal on it. Store its position Return to the home satellite.
Then in the ASC1 menu and receiver signal finder menu. Peak that signal. What was 0000 will be something different at highest signal.
Scroll all the way down to back to main menu and hit the center OK button.
Scroll to System Reset and hit OK. Scroll to Reset position. Press OK and commit the setting. Hit the little home button.
Your home satellite will reset to 0000 and all previously saved satellites will be on target.
Immediately return to the last satellite you were hunting and snagged. Peak its signal and store it. Trying to not jog the dish E/W too much. Works pretty slick.
I mentioned that you most always lose counts. When I reset position the dish will almost always predictably sail right past 127W towards the West by some amount.

 

[jdavid22]

Typically, if needed, the capacitor is placed between the two motor wires in the actuator. I've seen it either soldered at the motor or connected between the screws on the actuator's terminal strip.

Have used a torroid 240, type 43 at the actuator and wrapped the control wire bundle around the donut 7 to 10 times. Clip-om ferrites can be used, but in my opinion, not as effective. Might install a 2nd torroid at the controller and wrap only the sensor wires around the torroid core.

Also, connect the sheild (around the S1/S2 sensor wires) only to the controller's ground and leave unconnected (open) at the actuator.

Miscounts may be caused by an aging reed switch, which can become magnitized and become unreliable over time.

Good luck!

My actuator is new, I just bought it, and I hope it hasn't arrived damaged or at the end of its useful life. I rule that out, and I also had a counting error in a Toshiba positioner, but I assumed it could be due to my antenna being out of alignment due to weather effects. I ordered shielded cables and I already have the capacitors, so I'll let you know soon. Thank you.

 

[jdavid22]

Interesting. With no electronics experience (or very little). A few things.
A capacitor of the suggested value between the motor terminals helps in most cases.
Be sure when selecting one that it is a non-polarized disc. Not an electrolytic with +/- leads. Because motor direction changes by reversing the voltage polarity. An electrolytic cap getting reversed voltage can damage them or make them pop like a firecracker.

A mechanical check of the motor to tube coupling would be a good idea. I'm going to guess that you're always losing counts.
Gaining counts is highly improbable due to the way everything works. If you do gain counts. Like when you change to a satellite more East (if your actuator pushes the dish from West to East). It could in fact be motor noise or a worn out reed switch with bouncy, noisy contacts.

If I run my dish from satellite to satellite. Counts will usually track good for a long time. It's when I hunt for a new sat to add to my stored settings. Where you're jogging the dish East and West to peak signal before storing the position. That's where errors add up.
It gets worse if in fact the motor/gearbox coupling is worn and sloppy. The motor will turn on and start counting before the tube moves.
Worn out tube threads could probably add to it too. Do check if the motor to tube coupling is still in good shape.

Keep a satellite as your "home" position at 0000. For me 127W. Brian helped to understand why.
As you add sats to your stored positions. Where you get to the point you can move to one and another with no E/W adjustments to peak the signal consistently. And hunt for a new one, looking for and peaking your signal on it. Store its position Return to the home satellite.
Then in the ASC1 menu and receiver signal finder menu. Peak that signal. What was 0000 will be something different at highest signal.
Scroll all the way down to back to main menu and hit the center OK button.
Scroll to System Reset and hit OK. Scroll to Reset position. Press OK and commit the setting. Hit the little home button.
Your home satellite will reset to 0000 and all previously saved satellites will be on target.
Immediately return to the last satellite you were hunting and snagged. Peak its signal and store it. Trying to not jog the dish E/W too much. Works pretty slick.
I mentioned that you most always lose counts. When I reset position the dish will almost always predictably sail right past 127W towards the West by some amount.

Interesting...hehe Google translates, I find what you write to me more interesting and it sounds very logical. I'm going to test it out. In fact, I've already marked the tube with a wax marker to see if there's any misalignment. I'll be able to see it here. Now, what you're telling me about configuring the positioner is new to me, as I'm just getting started with satellite TV with C-band, which is much more interesting than Ku-band. Thank you, I'll give it a try.

 

[arlo]

Interesting...hehe Google translates, I find what you write to me more interesting and it sounds very logical. I'm going to test it out. In fact, I've already marked the tube with a wax marker to see if there's any misalignment. I'll be able to see it here. Now, what you're telling me about configuring the positioner is new to me, as I'm just getting started with satellite TV with C-band, which is much more interesting than Ku-band. Thank you, I'll give it a try.

Google Translate? Speaking a bit much Geeklish. Sorry for that.
Marked the tube? Hopefully the tube clamp is very tight to keep it from "walking" under the dish weight.
One cheap piece of insurance would be a couple of worm clamps. The kind used on radiator hoses. On either side of the clamp you put on the tube.
Usually with a good actuator. And you mention yours is new (what brand?). No mechanical issues will be found. You do have a 2-wire sensor (reed switch) I assume.
How many satellites do you have stored so far? If you could. Run the dish back and forth a few times to satellites/channels using only the receiver to do it. Like 4 or 5 times in a row. Keep an eye on signal strength when the dish stops on a channel.
After several moves. Are you seeing a lot of drift in signal strength that requires jogging the dish with the E/W button?
Don't peak the signal manually. I'm interested in accumulated errors over several moves. Just for example go to 101W from 127W back and forth a few times.
Do you find the error getting more or less when you finally do check if bumping the dish to peak signal?
In other words. If 127W is 0000 and 101W starts out being 1320. After going back and forth a few times.
If 127W now needs to be moved to -0012 for the best signal and 101W has to be moved to 1332 for best signal. It will give a bit of an idea for a solution.
If it didn't register. When peaking signal on satellites and punching the E/W buttons multiple times to increment/decremet the counter to get the best signal. That is where the errors add up fast.
Usually from what I see. After finding and storing satellite positions and knowing your favorites. Changing back and forth to different satellites with the receiver controlling the ASC1. It takes quite a while for the errors to add up.
But if you keep one satellite as the 0000 position. Using the menu after once again peaking signal for that "home" satellite.
When you reset position on that satellite. Like, satellite x at 0000 needed bumped and now it reads -0016. Once you reset the position.
It is reset back to 0000 and all of your previously stored satellites will track properly.

 

[jdavid22]

Google Translate? Speaking a bit much Geeklish. Sorry for that.
Marked the tube? Hopefully the tube clamp is very tight to keep it from "walking" under the dish weight.
One cheap piece of insurance would be a couple of worm clamps. The kind used on radiator hoses. On either side of the clamp you put on the tube.
Usually with a good actuator. And you mention yours is new (what brand?). No mechanical issues will be found. You do have a 2-wire sensor (reed switch) I assume.
How many satellites do you have stored so far? If you could. Run the dish back and forth a few times to satellites/channels using only the receiver to do it. Like 4 or 5 times in a row. Keep an eye on signal strength when the dish stops on a channel.
After several moves. Are you seeing a lot of drift in signal strength that requires jogging the dish with the E/W button?
Don't peak the signal manually. I'm interested in accumulated errors over several moves. Just for example go to 101W from 127W back and forth a few times.
Do you find the error getting more or less when you finally do check if bumping the dish to peak signal?
In other words. If 127W is 0000 and 101W starts out being 1320. After going back and forth a few times.
If 127W now needs to be moved to -0012 for the best signal and 101W has to be moved to 1332 for best signal. It will give a bit of an idea for a solution.
If it didn't register. When peaking signal on satellites and punching the E/W buttons multiple times to increment/decremet the counter to get the best signal. That is where the errors add up fast.
Usually from what I see. After finding and storing satellite positions and knowing your favorites. Changing back and forth to different satellites with the receiver controlling the ASC1. It takes quite a while for the errors to add up.
But if you keep one satellite as the 0000 position. Using the menu after once again peaking signal for that "home" satellite.
When you reset position on that satellite. Like, satellite x at 0000 needed bumped and now it reads -0016. Once you reset the position.
It is reset back to 0000 and all of your previously stored satellites will track properly.

I haven't done what you mentioned about switching between satellites and checking the counts, but the times I moved randomly, I went up to check the tube and see if it had moved, but no... according to the mark I made, it's the same. There's no movement. My motor is a 36" Screw Ball venture, something like that, I don't remember exactly. I bought it in January this year. Tomorrow I'll check the counts between satellites, as you mentioned. Currently, I have from 135w to 55w.

 

[arlo]

I haven't done what you mentioned about switching between satellites and checking the counts, but the times I moved randomly, I went up to check the tube and see if it had moved, but no... according to the mark I made, it's the same. There's no movement. My motor is a 36" Screw Ball venture, something like that, I don't remember exactly. I bought it in January this year. Tomorrow I'll check the counts between satellites, as you mentioned. Currently, I have from 135w to 55w.

Can you tell me the current sensor cable you have? The gauge, stranded or solid, and if it has a third shielded braid or uninsulated stranded wire wrapping around the sensor wires?
I could duplicate and check counts errors here. Can you get 127W and 101W?
If so, cool. If not then tell me two sats you can get that are close to that range. 127 is my lowest sat I can receive.
Check for maximum signal strength on both. If peaking is needed then save the positions. Write the current counter reading down.
Go to a satellite (127) and make note of the signal strength. Then go to the other one and do the same. Make note of the signal.
Do that several times repeatedly and make note if the signal drops. Write it down. Same channel on both sats each time.
If you do notice a signal drop. Sweep to both sats a few more times. Notice if the signal keeps dropping. It really shouldn't.
If it does at some point or steadily drops. Jog the dish on the current satellite and make note of where the counter lands at the previous max. signal level. Go to the other sat and do the same.

You have a nice actuator and it's new enough to not give issues. I'm on the 9th life of a Supercrap 36" unit. Well seasoned but still works well with some mods done to it. Unless I am satellite hunting and bumping the direction buttons to get a good signal. Not really much positional drift corrections needed. But boy oh boy! Bumping that sucker manually E/W a lot will throw it way out.
Like I said. Using 127W for my 0000 reference. A position reset after peaking signal back on 127 fixes it all.
A snubber capacitor across the motor terminals and good, shielded sensor cable may be just what the doctor ordered.
Hope "the book" makes sense.